Ep. 158 – Zero Party Data VS First Party Data + PERSONALIZATION CHANGES YOU NEED TO MAKE ===> Guest: Nate Frick of Marigold (Former AOL, But Can’t Fix Your Laptop!)

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I'm Jay Schwedelson.

Let's do this, not that.

We are here for do this, not that. And we have an awesome guest. We have Nate Frick. Now, who's Nate Frick and what are we going to be talking about?

Nate has been in the marketing space and the email space for a really long time, and he has been at some of the biggest brands leading the evolution of email. He is the director of enterprise strategy and architecture for Marigold.

Now, if you don't know Marigold, all right, they have over 40,000 customers, some of the most iconic brands in the world, leveraging their platform to send their emails, to run their loyalty programs. Marigold is incredible.

And Nate heading up, like their enterprise strategy, he comes from the world of Cheetah Digital and before that, aol, when AOL is not just an email address that your grandparents have, when it was like the thing. The guy knows this world. And we're going to be talking about personalization. I'm really excited about. So, Nate, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Jay. Appreciate the introduction. It's great to be here.

Awesome. All right, before we get into personalization and for people that are like, oh, personalization, I know everything about that. I don't think so.

I really don't. Because we're going to dig into some stuff that I think you can really apply to all of your marketing, not just your email marketing immediately.

But before we do that, Nate, give us a little rundown. How did Nate become Nate?

Sure. I have been in this role. You set it up nicely. Thank you. Enterprise strategy director with Mergold for about five years.

Really enjoy what Marigold does for brand marketers and my role in it. I provide strategic guidance to our customers on basically moving their businesses forward.

And of course, that's going to include taking advantage of Marigold's platforms and services. But at a macro level, it's really looking at broader trends that impact how they run their business.

So personalization, benchmarking data, looking at trends in the industry, competitive analysis, all that factors into what I do and how I consult with my clients on a day to day, week to week basis. Prior to Marigold, I was responsible for a global services team at a company that focused on zero party Data acquisition for brands.

So we were a little bit ahead of, ahead of the curve there.

I like to joke that back then the wind was in our face a little bit and now it's at our back because everyone is talking about zero party data and first party of course too, and what that means for personalization to reach consumers effectively.

So I was in a services role there, as I mentioned, but from that I've got a deep appreciation for, you know, how the sauce is made, if you will, what do you do to take some of those concepts around personalization and put them into action.

So I really do enjoy working with both worlds and providing guidance, guidance to my customers on what we should be looking at, how we go about it, and then actually seeing it be implemented.

That is awesome. I really love that you brought up zero party data and first party data and I want you to talk to me as if I'm clueless because I kind of am.

All right, break down for us. What is the difference between zero party data and first party data?

Sure. It's a question I get often and the follow up to that too is and do I need both. And my answer to that typically is yes.

They work in tandem together effectively. So first party data is going to be observed. Data capture or collection.

So think about maybe you've got someone who is logged into your website and you're able to see what pages are viewing, what products they might be expressing interest in. Transactional data factors into first party data.

Zero party data is really intended to take that next step, which is going beyond just observance into asking the consumer what are you interested in? So it gets into deeper profile data like tell me a little bit about your interests. Why are you here? What are you looking for?

How often are you looking for something? Are you looking for something we offer for yourself or for your family or as a gift?

How often do you plan to come back or take advantage of what we offer? So all of that gets into a deeper direct understanding of intent and why the consumer is on your site in the first place.

And I'm a big believer in it because then that sets up marketers for smart strategies around their messaging segmentation.

Thereafter, you take out some of the guesswork and you're able to actually apply it directly to the reason the person was on your brand site in the first place.

So when you say first party data is. It's not the data that they intentionally share. Right. First party data is the data that they are sharing by their actions, essentially.

Yep, exactly.

Do you find that that's the bucket of data that brands don't leverage enough. Because I feel like zero party data. Okay, great. Somebody told me their age or their income or their industry, I know how to leverage that.

But do you, do you find that brands really are not leveraging first party data enough? Is that fair to say?

To a degree. I think, you know, all brands are different, of course, and, and some are leaning into that more than others.

But certainly there is action that can be taken on first party data.

If someone is coming back and looking at a specific product on your site, for example, they've looked at it more than once, that probably shows some interest. Right.

So the ability for the brand to then follow back up and communicate with them about that item, learn a little bit more about why they're there when they're thinking to go back to it, is a smart move. So yeah, to the extent that that data is available to you, you should leverage it. Of course. And the other example is transactional.

So when we know that someone has purchased something that sets up an opportunity for recommended items that complement that item, that's all back in kind of that first party opportunity as well.

Okay, that makes sense to me. And some brands doing better job than others. I get that.

So what is the Nate short list must dos as it relates to personalization and leveraging all this data.

Like when you go in to talk to a big brand and you're like, okay, well let's make sure you're doing these few things because this is like a no brainer. So that way everybody listening be like, okay, I got to do these things.

Yeah, no, great question. What I typically do, Jay, is start off with kind of a question and it's a two parter. One is what are your business objectives?

And then what data do you have today? Because the answer to the second question is going to help formulate the response to the first one.

If you've got some data in your disposal but you're not acting on it today, that starts to give some clarity around what, what zero party data you might want to go try to acquire with a thoughtful process and strategy with your consumers.

And that's typically where the opportunities start to reveal themselves initially is how do we learn a little bit more about people in a measured fashion. I'm a big proponent of not trying to do it all at once.

Don't boil the ocean, but come back with kind of a segmented strategy where you can learn a little bit more in time that is actionable and that's the key component of it.

Because what I see some people do, Jay, is when they identify the data points that they wish they had, they might go out and ask for it and ask for a lot of it and that could set them up for one of two potential missteps. One is you don't get much of the response you're looking for because you're asking for too much at once.

Or secondly, you get a lot of it but then you don't put it into practice, you don't utilize it.

And the risk in doing that is that you're not going to get people probably to come back a second or third time because you didn't be authentic and use the, you know, the data they willing and provided in that exchange effectively the first time. So long answer. But all that factors into kind of where these conversations start and how we map out a go forward strategy around data acquisition.

You know, you just said something and I've never actually thought about it before and I've been doing this for a little while, which is really interesting, which is if you're asking for the data, right, you're actually asking for the data or the zero party data and then you don't act on that data after it's been provided. You're not living up to your end of the bargain, that data exchange. And I think it creates a bad relationship. I mean, is that a fair statement?

Very fair and accurate. And I've seen it too many times to count. The intention is good, right? Like we want to learn more about you.

If I'm a brand marketer and I'm asking you, Jay, some questions about yourself because my intent is to personalize my messages to you.

But if you provide some of that data and then I don't really do anything with it in a timely fashion, well, why would you trust that I'm going to do a better job the second time? I mean, and that's why I recommend kind of a start small approach and you learn as you go and you expand from there.

You don't need everything at once.

But the more that you effectively use as a brand what you are provided with by the interested customer at the start, the more that you're setting up for a fruitful long term relationship with that individual.

Yeah, that's not going to be, that's like a game changer for me because if you're going to ask for it, you better use it. And then if you do use it, you got to have a license to ask for more because the person's like, yeah, that was cool, I got Something out of that.

So let me ask you, what about different channels? Like can you not personalize via SMS the way that you do email?

Like is, is the person get more annoyed if they get an SMS that's hyper personalized versus an email? Like, is there certain channels that you have to speak a certain way?

Yeah, there certainly are. And I think SMS is probably just the inverse of what you said.

I think because SMS is on our phone and those are such personal devices to all of us, we, we expect personalized messages to show up.

So the more personal you are on the mobile channels in particular, the more effective you're going to be and I think the more that's going to resonate with individuals. Now your strategy changes. Like obviously you've got different canvases or templates to work with.

Email can afford itself, lend itself to much more imagery and creativity in that regard. Carousels and such. Sms, you have to be more to the point.

But that is all the more reason that you have to be specific, can be personal and that's going to lend itself to some really high engagement. I mean SMS across the board is typically, you know, open rates are seven to 10 times higher than what brands typically enjoy via email.

So imagine if you take that already and then you apply some additional personalization as an added layer, what you can, you know, benefit from as a brand that.

I never thought of it that way, but you're right, it is much more of a personal thing when you're looking at it on your phone. And would you say in general personalization? And this kind of drives me bananas.

Maybe it doesn't drive you bananas, but when we talk about personalization and marketing, I feel like the default for marketer is like, oh yeah, it's gonna say J comma in the subject line and that's personalization. I mean, do you, do you get that vibe out there that that's what people think personalization is and is it drive you crazy?

Yeah, the first name in the subject line is kind of table stakes at this point, isn't it?

And some brands, you know, much to my surprise, don't even ask for someone's name necessarily when they're trying to acquire some of that data and establish a relationship. And to me that's a miss, that's a missed opportunity because at least you can try that.

So something helps you stand out in what is very likely a very busy inbox for the consumer. So yeah, I think that it doesn't mean you shouldn't use it. Of course it has a time and a place.

But again, when you get into that deeper level of data understanding and why someone's there, as I said a moment ago, that affords you a better opportunity to drop in some of those data points in your subject line to get them curious, open up the email and engage deeper. And of course, your body content can and should support personalization as well.

And that can be everything from a particular product category to a date in the future that maybe someone's looking to take a trip. It could be the location of the nearest store, you know, grocery, retail.

All of that factors in back to the data strategy that you want to set up initially. Yeah.

And I think that people are starting to get the idea that it's not just your first name or it's not just a birthday email. That's not what personalization means. Although I did just see a half birthday email. That was pretty cool. I thought that was good.

That was good use of, that was a good use of data. So I've seen something happening in the marketing space, especially email pendulum seems to have swung in one direction.

I'm curious what your take is on this. For the longest time, it used to be that, let's say you like a shopping cart abandonment email, right?

You'd get an email and the email would be like, here's a discount on some stuff. And it wouldn't say, we know that you were looking at this. It would just kind of be that stuff.

And you'd be like, oh yeah, I was just looking at that.

But now I'm seeing more and more where brands are being like, hey, we know you were just looking at this or checking this out or you were just on our pricing page or whatever and we want to like, you know, give you a discount or whatever. Brands are being almost more upfront with it. Is that where we're headed?

Is it more like acceptable now for brands to be leveraging the data and the recipient understands what's really going on?

Yeah, I think so.

And it is, you know, at Marigold, what we're certainly seeing in our own studies is that consumers are raising their hands saying, I do want to be thought of as an individual. And, and if you use that and I give you my permission to do so and you use that effectively. Right.

It has to be well intentioned by the brand and authentic. But if, if they do that, well, the, the consumers are going to respond.

So the, the more that you're able to do that and kind of, you know, better understand not only what they're, they're looking for, but how that factors into where they're at in their buying cycle, where that might be in relation to other additional items or considering and when that might be, the more effective I think you're going to be.

It's not just immediately responding back to an action shown by the consumer and following right up with, like, an immediate offer, although that's certainly a common practice.

But I think what we're starting to see with brands is to use that opportunity to engage at a deeper level and round out a little bit more clarity and understanding around intent by the consumer.

The more that they're able to do that, the more they're probably likely to, you know, realize that immediate exchange, but then build on it in subsequent conversations.

Totally. All right, let's. Let's transition to the crazy part of this podcast called.

Since you didn't ask, this is where we get into other stuff, and I'm curious about something.

So back in the day, you worked at aol, and you've had all these really cool marketing roles and all this stuff, but I feel like, because you were at aol, I don't know if this happens for you, but it's happened to me a lot.

Does everybody in your family, your friends, your whatever, call you up, like, when their Internet goes down or they're having problems with their TV or whatever? Because if you worked at aol, you were, like, in charge of the Internet, and they probably think that, like, you know, how to fix everything.

Does that happen to you.

Less today than it used to?

Oh, that's good.

But it certainly did. Yeah. I was always the Internet guy with my family and friends.

I remember back in the day, you know, people would call me up when their Internet service was out and kind of try to, you know, throw stones my direction. Like, hey, I'm a product manager. You know, I don't even know what to do here for you. But, yeah, it's.

It's been a minute since I've worked at aol, but I'll tell you, as time passes, I have even more appreciation for my years there. They were truly blazing a trail. Right.

Not just on email, but just consumer engagement and journeys and, you know, how you are able to kind of bring products and services to the masses. It was a. It was a really thrilling time, and I. I really did appreciate every minute of it.

Yeah. And they also made, like, I don't know, 100 million Christmas ornaments because they're CD ROMs. Oh, yeah. Were everywhere. It was out of control.

We would have Christmas parties, and as a joke, I would give my Colleagues, a wrapped cd.

You really are a horrible gift giver, by the way.

Yeah, I didn't get back invited to this too often.

Yeah, I understand that. All right, well, speaking of great companies, you're with Marigold. Please share with everybody how they could follow you consume Marigold's content.

We're gonna put it all in the show notes, but yeah, how do we get involved in Nate's world? Yeah.

Thank you. So Marigold is, is a company that's focused on relationship marketing.

I think you said it nicely, Jay, in terms of our, you know, breadth and depth and what we do for marketers. But we really do live and breathe this.

You can find us@meetmeragold.com get a sense of who we are, how we help different verticals, industries, and that includes non profits for anyone out there that might fit that bill. But it's a great group of people that are truly passionate about helping brand marketers succeed.

And that's both from investment in our technology solutions as well as our people on the services front to work hard to ensure that our clients get the best out of their investment with us. So thank you for asking.

Yeah, absolutely. And we're going to put Nate's LinkedIn in the show notes, follow him, connect with him.

And he really is a good guy in terms of you have questions not just to become a customer of Mario whatever, but just to about personalization or about where it's all headed. He's really forthcoming and he likes to share. So connect with him and, and Nate, thanks for being here, man. Really appreciate it.

Thank you, Jay. Pleasure. I enjoyed it.

You did it.

You made it to the end. Nice. But the party's not over.

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