DONALD MILLER! Founder StoryBrand! Easy Way to Clarify Your Brand Message! New York Times Best Selling Author! | Ep. 349

Jay Schwedelson: We are back for an incredible episode of Do This. Not that we have a guest, but not any guest. We have Donald Miller. Now, I would imagine 99% of you know who Donald Miller is, but if you don't, he is the founder and CEO of StoryBrand. He's not only the bestselling author of a zillion books.

Jay Schwedelson: Okay, but do you realize collectively his books have spent more than a year on the New York Times bestseller list? That is wild. Let that sink in for a minute. His company, StoryBrand and Coach Builder help businesses and leaders clarify their messaging by using this amazing structure of a story. And over 1 million business leaders have discovered Donald Miller's powerful StoryBrand frame framework.

Jay Schwedelson: The guy is a, is a, is a monster in the marketing world. It's incredible to have him here. Donald, welcome to the show.

Donald Miller: Jay, I'm so glad to be here.

Jay Schwedelson: I it. This is awesome. I'm excited. I've been a fan of StoryBrand for so long. So for those people that maybe aren't familiar with StoryBrand or you're new to them, can you quickly tell us, you know, who is Donald Miller?

Donald Miller: Oh gosh. Well, you know, if, if, if I knew that I, I, my life would be a lot more balanced, uh, uh, you know, well, first of all, I'm a husband and a dad. That's pri, that's primary. I didn't get married till like I was 42, became a dad at 49. So I. I'm just grateful to, uh, to have, uh, have a family. So that's number one for me.

Donald Miller: Then the next is I'm a messaging guy. I mean, I spent 30 years writing books, which basically involves sitting around your underwear trying to figure out what to say next, and somehow that trained a part of my mind. That can pretty well figure out a good thing to say. And so when, when that translated into corporate America and they were trying to sell a plumber or, or a, a plunger or a a, you know, a new soft drink or whatever, I just found myself with this ability to say, well, what if you say it this way, I think people will buy more of it.

Donald Miller: And that turned into everything that I do today. So I've got about 35 employees. We have. Hundreds, about 700 certified StoryBrand coaches out there. I train them in my framework and they go out and they help people figure out what to say. So if you have a product that you think should be selling a lot better, you're probably not talking about it very well.

Donald Miller: You're probably talking about it in such a way that it's confusing. And so customers, rather than explaining to you that you're confusing, they just ignore you. And so we go and we say, Hey, if you say it this way, we think they'll pay a lot more attention. And that's what I do for a living.

Jay Schwedelson: So I love everything about that 'cause it, you make it, you simplify it down to this idea of a story. So I'm curious, for all the listeners out there, whether they're a business marketer or a consumer marketer, probably sitting there saying, well, I'm screwing this up. So what is, what is the number one mistake?

Jay Schwedelson: What is the mistake that brands make most often when they're trying to tell their story? What should they be doing instead?

Donald Miller: They should be using short, repeatable soundbites. That's probably the biggest issue is that that, that most companies are trying to explain what they do or what they offer, but they're not coming up with a series of soundbites that they can repeat. And that's that we've seen that time and time again, uh, cause business growth.

Donald Miller: When you actually say, Hey, we're gonna control how we talk about our brand, our entire team is gonna talk about it the same way. Uh, we're gonna talk about it in such a way that after we talk about it, nobody is confused. None of our customers are confused. In fact, we've said it so succinctly and so well that they could actually repeat it back to us.

Donald Miller: When you hit that. Level of condensed and concise messaging, that's when things begin to happen. Now, that's, that's about soundbites, but what do those soundbites need to be about? And that's part two. And part two is those soundbites need to be about your customer's survival. That's really it. I. People are hardwired to survive.

Donald Miller: Their brain is hardwired to keep them on the planet, keep them alive. In a first world economy, that means more than food and shelter. It might mean status. It might mean better night's sleep, it might mean less inflammation or whatever. That is your product. The only reason people are buying it is they see it as the survival asset.

Donald Miller: So when you can actually use a soundbite to to point out. Uh, how it's a survival asset without them having to even think about it. Your sales go way, way up. And so two things. You need sound bites, and those sound bites need to be about your customer survival. They don't need to be about you. They don't need to be about how old your company is or how successful you guys are or any of that.

Donald Miller: They need to be about. Uh, you know, my soundbite is, uh, we help you clarify your message so customers engage. That's it. So people say, what do you do? I say, we help you clarify your message. So customers actually engage you. How does that associate with their survival? If customers don't engage, they don't place orders.

Donald Miller: You don't have any money. You lay everybody off, you go bankrupt. So you gotta be able to apply it to their survival very, very quickly. I helped a company recently, they, they dominate the fish aquarium market in pet stores in America. We came up with a three word soundbite. Kids love aquariums. They saw a 99% increase in sales when they put that soundbite everywhere.

Donald Miller: Why? Because parents are walking into a pet store looking for some of their kids will love, and when you don't make 'em think right now, kids, your kids being happy and having a pet and learning to, you know, learning some responsibility. But that's all survival associated. So when you actually tell, tell me.

Donald Miller: Lemme tell you how you're gonna make your life better. Your cat, your kid's gonna have a pet. They love your kid's. Gonna have an aquarium. They can look at that. They love your kid's. Gonna learn how to feed a fish every day. Kids are gonna learn how to clean this thing. They're gonna learn some responsibility.

Donald Miller: Kids love aquariums, by the way. Every parent wants one thing. They want, they wanna find something their kids loves. You know? So, so, so I, I guess, you know, a big thi the reason that StoryBrand is so different than so many marketing agencies. If so many marketing agencies try to make it fancy, sophisticated, beautiful, we don't focus on any of that.

Donald Miller: We focus on clarity. We try to make it clear because people don't give you a lot of time. They're not pouring a glass of scotch sitting down studying the puzzle. That is your marketing message. So the clearer that you actually are, the better you're gonna do. And that, that's where we, we kind of own the corner on that market.

Donald Miller: We own the corner on clarity.

Jay Schwedelson: I, I have to tell you that in my career, I'm in year 27 of my career, and I will tell, I will say the biggest failure of mine has been my ability to articulate what did I, what it is I do to for a living.

Donald Miller: Me too.

Jay Schwedelson: it

Donald Miller: I didn't figure it out till I didn't figure it out till StoryBrand. And even then, you know, I always say StoryBrand is the only company I can't help. I'm just too close to it, you know? And so I, I, I, you know, we are all there and that's all, that's every human being, right? That's my whole dating life is, I was unable to articulate why I, why you should date me, you.

Donald Miller: It's everything. So yeah. I mean, you and you and me both.

Jay Schwedelson: It's so frustrating, but you know, you, you simplify it. And I've, I'm gonna go off script here for a second 'cause I'm curious about something. talking about always putting the person, you know, in the, in, in the center of it, not you, the company. But then

Donald Miller: Right.

Jay Schwedelson: think about everybody always talking about social proof and everyone's like, you need social proof.

Jay Schwedelson: You need to show, these are the logos of companies that we work with. These are the amount of five star reviews that we

Donald Miller: Yeah.

Jay Schwedelson: are these amazing testimonials. Is that not? Saying Hi, look at me. I'm great. Should you not be using social proof in this kind of like environment?

Donald Miller: Oh, you absolutely should. That's a great question. You absolutely should, and here's why. Every customer, this is the language we use outta StoryBrand, every customer. Identifies as a hero in a hole. Every story really starts out with a hero in a hole. You, the logos of the companies that you've worked with and the awards that you've won.

Donald Miller: That's not a narcissistic thing to talk about. What it's saying is, I'm good at getting people out of a hole. So if I'm in a hole and you come along and you say, I've gotten 5,000 people out of a hole, I'm like, okay, can you do 5,001? Right? So, no, I I There are categories in which you're, you're able to talk.

Donald Miller: In fact, you can talk about yourself all day long. The two things that you can talk about all day long. The only two things that I'll let you talk about if you're gonna talk about yourself, and you can do it all day long, customers never get annoyed are, here's why I care about you and here's why I'm competent to get you outta that hole.

Donald Miller: That's it. If you talk about those two things, so you pick the category logos on websites, social proof that speak to your authority and your competency at getting people out of a hole, and you can do that all day long. You can't do. What you can't do is say, my grandfather started this company and I was really insecure when I took over and, you know, my wife and I started this thing and we named it after our dog that our grand, you know, nobody gives a shit about any of that.

Donald Miller: They care about whether or not you care about them in that hole and whether or not you can get them out.

Jay Schwedelson: So to put it frame in my mind, even when I'm talking about whatever it is, it's about me or my company, it's to the benefit of. It's

Donald Miller: That's right.

Jay Schwedelson: you know,

Donald Miller: That's right. Here's why. Here's why I'm the right person for you because, and there's only two reasons, because I care about you. I don't like seeing you in this state. It looks very painful, and I'm extremely good at getting people outta that state. So I, I said I a lot, but I, everything I said about I, about me was really about you.

Jay Schwedelson: So, all right. Uh, there's something I always want to know about the StoryBrand framework for a business like mine or other business out there, whether they're saying products or services, when you have multiple products, uh, multiple audiences, multiple service lines, all this stuff, how do you still keep your story, you know, simple.

Jay Schwedelson: I, I, I feel like that that's a struggle that I have, but how do you do it? And you got all sorts of stuff going on, you're trying to articulate.

Donald Miller: Well, let me ask you this. Let me ask you to summarize in one sentence what the Lord of the Ring's trilogy is about. One sentence.

Jay Schwedelson: uh, I Finding the rings, I.

Donald Miller: Well, it's about, yeah, I mean, you said it, it's about, it's about destroying the ring, right? And saving middle Earth. You, you know, you've, you were able to figure that really quickly. However, that movie, that series of movies, that series of books is about a lot more than that, right? It's about where, where are the, you know, where are the, the worst Frodo gonna get launched and second lunch, and how are they gonna get away from these spiders who live in these trees?

Donald Miller: And, you know, all, all that kind of stuff. It's about a thousand things. So a good story is actually, it has a very succinct plot and a million subplots. So what you've gotta get right is your plot, like the StoryBrand plot is we're gonna help you clarify your message so customers engage. That's the plot.

Donald Miller: We will do that through private workshops where somebody comes in and puts your entire team in a conference room and we get it done in one day. We'll do that through storybrand.ai, where our artificial intelligence tools, we'll do that for you. We'll do that through my building a StoryBrand book. We'll do that through a certified coach if you want to hire a coach to help you do it.

Donald Miller: Some of our coaches make websites and they'll write the copy for you. It's just, just done. It'll just be delivered. You don't even have to mess with ai. They'll do it for you. So those are subplots in a story that has a plot about you clarifying your message, and that's what's really important for everybody to understand.

Donald Miller: You know, if I'm CEO of Lego, I would want to say, uh, we sell a toy that enhances your child's creativity. You can make a motorcycle, you can make a house, you can make a village, you can make a Christmas village, you can make a, you know, the Eiffel Tower. You can make a, those are subplots, but the plot is a toy that enhances your child's creativity.

Donald Miller: So that's the really important thing to get your plot right and then make sure all your subplots fit under that plot.

Jay Schwedelson: So this is the most random question you've probably ever had on a podcast, but in, in all your stuff, you always talk about, uh, making the customer the hero. And

Donald Miller: Yeah.

Jay Schwedelson: that. you, this is ridiculous. Are you a, like a big Marvel in DC person? Are you like a superhero person or do you not care at all about that?

Jay Schwedelson: Just 'cause hero? That word hero is like, to me, hero and StoryBrand are like together.

Donald Miller: I, I think endlessly about narrative structures and archetypes. In fact, I'm working, I'm just starting a book called Your Living Archetype, which explores the seven different stories that people live within. You know, it's based on Christopher Booker's seven basic Plots, rags to Riches. Comedy tragedy, quest, uh, re rebirth, you know, those are the names of the plots that he, he says that are the only plots that actually exist.

Donald Miller: You know, my theory is that those plots exist because people live inside of those stories. You know, my story is a rags to richest story. I, I grew up very, very poor. Uh, we were treated a little bit like we were white trash, or certainly I identified with that. And I have a chip on my shoulder to prove I'm not that guy that explains my whole life, my whole life.

Donald Miller: Uh, that explains it. And so, uh, somebody else might be in a conquer the monster story. You know, Dave Ramsey loves finding a villain to bring him down and he chose credit card companies, right? So he, his story and my story are completely different. So I, I really, I really think a lot about archetypes and hero archetypes, that sort of thing.

Donald Miller: Uh, we actually, what's funny that you talk about Marvel, 'cause there are 26 Marvel movies. My wife and I plop up a laptop every night in this season of our life and we're going through 'em all. And, and so, uh, you know, so yeah, I like to think about that stuff and study that stuff. And, uh, you know, it's interesting to me, like even the movie Frozen, my daughter watches the movie Frozen Olaf, who's the snowman, is living inside of a comedy while, you know.

Donald Miller: Uh, Elsa is living inside of a drama. You know, it's, it's fascinating that you can have a character inside of a story that's having a completely different experience. Uh, yeah. So I, I never stopped geeking out on that stuff.

Jay Schwedelson: I, I can't go to a movie with you though. 'cause I'll walk out of a movie, I'll be like, Hey, did you like that movie? And some will say, I'll say, nah, it wasn't that great. Good. You'll be like, well, the, the arc of the story was really great at this

Donald Miller: Well, if you don't think the movie's good, I'll tell you why that's the problem

Jay Schwedelson: right.

Donald Miller: or what they could have done different.

Jay Schwedelson: Alright, so everybody out there that's listening, they're like, okay, I don't know if I can sign up with StoryBrand.

Jay Schwedelson: I don't know if I have the budget, this, that, or whatever, but I, I need to figure something out here. And so, uh, what if, if, if you're that marketer out, there's like, maybe my website just stinks. What is the easy litmus test for someone to go to their own website, be like, this is actually confusing.

Jay Schwedelson: Visitors

Donald Miller: Yeah.

Jay Schwedelson: there's a simple thing here.

Donald Miller: Take your domain. Take your domain, whatever that is, acme acme plumber.com. Go to storybrand.ai and for free, enter your domain into our website analyzer tool and I will give you a report on everything that's wrong with it for free. I'll just, I'll just tell you, you, you know, you're making yourself the hero.

Donald Miller: You don't have a clear soundbite above the header. I, I can't figure out what's, what's, what's at stake, whether or not I buy your product. Like you're not telling me what will be lost. So we need a soundbite there, and I'll just give you a report on everything that's wrong with it.

Jay Schwedelson: Alright, we're putting that in the show notes 'cause everyone should go do that. You the word free. He said the word free and that's amazing. And so you also touched on ai. I wanna know. What is Donald Miller when he thinks about AI for your business, for businesses that you are training? What does AI mean to Donald Miller?

Donald Miller: AI is is the best thought partner. I've ever worked with. Now I'm a writer, so I'm not a coder, so I'm coming at it from a writing perspective. I, I don't think AI writes better than most good writers because there's something kind of magical about that human touch inside of writing. However, to be able to go to AI and say, you know, Hey, I'm, I'm, um.

Donald Miller: I'm not sure about this idea. Can you sort of flesh it out and tell me whether or not it's valid? Uh, you know, it gives me back really, really good information on that. What's interesting is ai, everybody would think AI would shorten the writing process. Uh, for me it extends it because I now have somebody else in the room that I'm talking back and forth with.

Donald Miller: To try to make it better and better, and it's taking me longer to actually ship something, but what I, what I finally ship at the end is much better than I would've been able to do by myself. So I see AI as a writing partner if you're not a professional writer. It can write for you and it can write, it can write really well.

Donald Miller: Uh, storybrand.ai will write your, your nurture emails, your lead generator. It'll wireframe your website. It'll create a keynote presentation, a pitch deck, all that kind of stuff. And then what you do is you take what it does and you start editing it, and you start refining it. So I, I, I hope that what AI is doing is.

Donald Miller: Making copy of, you know, better and and better for a human to interact with. I think there's some people who use it, they just ship it as is and. It feels like we're heading toward a universe where AI is talking to ai. Like, have your AI call my AI and we'll try to get together and have coffee, you know, that sort of thing.

Donald Miller: Uh, you know, and, and I, I don't, I, I, you know, who knows? The event Horizon is like three months away. We don't know exactly what happens on the other side of 90 days from now. But, um, you know, I use ai. I I didn't like it at first. I, I'm a purist. But when I realized I could deliver better value and more interesting copy for the customer, I was hooked immediately.

Donald Miller: And I use it all the time.

Jay Schwedelson: Well, I think it's really important for people to hear, you know, here you are, a bestselling author, written a lot of books. You're a writer and you're not sitting here saying, no, AI is ruining content, rooting writing, ruining all this. You know, you're viewing it as a partner, and I think that that's the right move

Donald Miller: Well, and it's a fact, look, it's a fact. It's, it's just, it's a fact. If you, you can't bury your head in the sand, it's here. I. You know, I'm a part of a, an AI think tank and, uh, they, it's, it's, it's, it was, I don't know if it still is, but it's one of the, the only think tanks that sort of advises Congress on AI legislation and the position of the think tank is, uh, our education system is, is not letting kids use AI and just trying to find out if they're using ai.

Donald Miller: But in China, they're doing the exact opposite. And I would agree with that. I would say that's like saying, Hey kids, you can't use calculators. That's cheating. Absolutely you can use a calculator. What's gonna get us to more advanced math? And I think the same. The same is true with ai,

Jay Schwedelson: Yeah, I, I, I agree. I just remember back in the early days of the internet where, uh, people were like starting to buy online and like, well, you can't put your credit card on a website. That's, that's you, your life would be over, whatever. And I'm like, uh, we're all gonna be doing it. And

Donald Miller: Yep.

Jay Schwedelson: feel like if you don't get on the train, you're missing like the future easy.

Donald Miller: Yeah, and not only that, like I have a, I had a, you know, I have a relationship tension with a friend of mine and I literally went in today and explained to Cha GPT what was going on. I said, Hey, can you, can you come from the perspective of a counselor and walk me through what my next steps need to be in order to make sure I don't damage this relationship?

Donald Miller: And they feel really affirmed. I mean, the advice was fantastic, and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do that. So, you know, I mean, if you're not using it, you're, you know, you're, you're missing out.

Jay Schwedelson: Yeah. Alright, so before we wrap up here, um, tell everybody where, where do they find all your stuff? What can they do? How do they consume StoryBrand?

Donald Miller: storybrand.ai, storybrand.ai is the best place that you can go. And when you go there, I'm gonna ask you some questions and I'm gonna give you seven soundbites you can use to talk about your company, your business. I'm also gonna give you what's called a controlling idea. And the controlling idea is an old screenwriting term that just means what your business is actually about.

Donald Miller: And then I'm gonna give you a tagline. And if you like that and you want more, you can sign up for a paid version, and that's gonna do. It's gonna wire frame your website for you. It's gonna write emails for you. It's gonna, you know, write lead generators and basically all manner of marketing material.

Donald Miller: It'll create it for you. And the difference with StoryBrand and other platforms is the StoryBrand framework. So we're always, we're never gonna let you be the hero in the story. We're always gonna prevent AI from making you the hero, because AI on by itself doesn't know that, that that's a rule. You can't break.

Donald Miller: And so we don't let it break that rule. We're always gonna try to start with the customer's problem. What is their pain point? So our formula works really, really well, and I wrote about 110 pages, single spaced instructions for OpenAI to put guardrails around it so that it would use the StoryBrand methodology rather than just, you know, what's out there.

Donald Miller: So, um, I would go to storybrand.ai. It's the best place to interact with our material.

Jay Schwedelson: I love it, so, so. Powerful. So many companies have benefited from that. Uh, I can't thank you enough for being here, Donald. And, uh, everybody, we're gonna put it all in the show notes. Uh, thanks again.

Donald Miller: Jay, thank you so much.