EP. 3- INCREASE Marketing ROI with Human Behavior Hacks! w/ Nancy Harhut of HBT Marketing l Expert Quick Tips

Foreign. Welcome to do this, not that, the podcast for marketers.

You'll walk away from each episode with actionable tips you can test immediately. You'll hear from the best minds in marketing who will share tactics, quick wins, and pitfalls to avoid.

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I'm Jay Schwedelson. Let's do this. Not that. This is exciting. I have one of my favorite industry friends here, Nancy Harhut.

Nancy, thank you for being on do this, not that.

Jay, I am so glad that you've launched this podcast and thank you so much for inviting me to join you on it.

Absolutely. You know, we were putting this together. I was making a list. I said, we need to Nancy.

And for those of you who don't know Nancy, let me give you a little bit of a background on Nancy. Nancy is the Chief Creative Officer at HBT Marketing, which is a Boston based digital direct marketing agency.

But Nancy's not just an agency person with incredible background, but she is also an author. She literally has written the book on behavioral science and marketing. I have the book right here. I've read this book. I love this book.

And when I say she's written the book, she's written a book about understanding how we behave and the impact that has on marketing. And it is mind blowing. So, Nancy, let me ask you a question. What led you to go down this path of behavioral science and marketing? Why that topic?

You know, it's funny, I ended up reading a book called Influence the Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini. And as I was reading it, I was, you know, underlining things and making margin notes.

And I was thinking about how what he was talking about applied to the work that I was doing for my clients. And that just kind of sent me down the rabbit hole. And I started to just learn more and more about behavioral science.

And I started to test some of the things that I was reading about for the work and like, you know, that I was doing for my clients. I'm like, I wonder if that would work. And it started to. And once it started to, that just sent me down that path.

And I never looked back because it's like, this is working. You know, it's one thing to follow marketing best practices.

You want to do that, you need to do that, but this is like the added extra that just gives you that additional advantage that's going to make it more likely that you get the response you're looking for. So I'm a big believer in It, I've seen it work and that's why I continue to talk about it.

So what we're going to go through now are three quick tips about how to leverage this behavior. Now, when we talk about these, can they apply to all different types of marketing channels or is it only good for email or social?

Or does it apply everywhere?

No, it's really channel agnostic. So when we talk about behavioral science, we're really talking about the decision making shortcuts that humans rely on.

They're just innate, they're decision defaults. They help people conserve mental energy. So because of that, they work.

Whether you're sending an email or writing a blog post, or maybe having a sales conversation on the phone or face to face or maybe you're sending a direct mail piece, it's all about the decision making shortcuts that people rely on. And so as a marketer, how you choose to leverage these behavioral science tactics is really up to you. They work pretty much in any channel.

Some may be better for others, like there are magnet words, for example, the eye goes right to them. You know, maybe they work better in something that's written than spoken, for example. But pretty much they're channel agnostic.

Awesome. So let's jump into these three tips. The first tip you're going to talk about, it's this idea of avoiding pain. What does that mean?

Behavioral scientists talk about something called loss aversion. And what they found is people are twice as motivated to avoid the pain of loss as they are to achieve the pleasure of gain.

But Jay, when you think about it, what do we do in marketing? We double down on the gains, right?

It's all about the gains, the advantages, the benefits, all the wonderful things that will happen if you just do what I'm asking you to do, right? If you just click or call or respond. And we know that benefits work.

I don't want your listeners to say, oh, Nancy said, we don't need benefits and we know that benefits work. But we also know, because science has proven it, that people are twice as motivated to avoid pain.

So sometimes what you want to do is instead of talking all about the wonderful things that you can bring to somebody, what you want to do is you want to talk about the things that they may lose, the pain they may encounter if they don't do what you're asking them to do, or the pain they can avoid if they do what you're asking them to do. But it's that idea of focus a little bit on the pain, not always present the Most rosy picture.

It's not all about the benefits, it's not all about the gains. Sometimes it's about the losses. So do the losses. Don't always do the gains.

I love that because, you know, this idea of pain points is what we're always trying to overcome. You know, you don't change a vendor because everything's fine.

You change it because you have a pain point you're trying to resolve, or you don't buy a product because you love what you already have you're trying to resolve. I love the idea of focusing in on that. So let's go to the second tip, which frankly, is a little bit of a shocker to me.

And this is the idea about whether you should focus on your expensive or your lowest costing product or service first when you're promoting things.

Sure.

So the temptation is for us as marketers to start with our most affordable option, because otherwise we're afraid that we're going to scare people away. We don't want to hit them with our biggest costs, we're afraid they'll run out of the room.

So we start with something smaller and then we hope to move them up. And there's a certain amount of logic to that, but it's not a good thing to do.

What you want to do is you want to start with your most expensive product or your most expensive service. And this would apply whether you're laying things out on your landing page or whether you're talking about them in your email.

The reason for this is something that behavioral scientists refer to as anchoring. And what they mean by that is the first number. And in this case, a price that people encounter becomes the anchor.

It becomes the reference point against which they evaluate everything else. So if you talk about your most expensive thing first, some people may bite and say, oh, yeah, that sounds good.

And what other people are going to be like, ooh, that's a little pricey. But what that does is it makes every other price under that look that much more attractive. Now imagine the reverse.

You lead with your least expensive thing. Some people bite and other people say, ooh, that's a little pricey.

We have no place else to go from there because you're trying to then go up, okay, not that one. How about the next one? It's even more expensive. Or the one after that? That's even more expensive.

So even though it seems a little counterintuitive, what you want to do is you want to lead with your most expensive product or service, your most expensive offering. You want to Anchor people on that price and everything else is going to look so much more attractive. And there are other ways to do it.

If you only have a single price and you want to make that price look more attractive, you can talk about what the manufacturer suggested, retail prices, which is generally more expensive, or what the original price is.

If you're putting something on sale, have your original price to the left of your sales price because that's what helps people realize what a great deal they're going to get. They think fixate on that first price and then they move on to the next. They go, that looks like a good deal.

But I would, I would imagine it also helps for the lifetime value of the customer because if they're coming in at, with, with the most expensive product or service that they're acquiring, that's it.

They're at the top of the mountain and they're going to add on more and more stuff where if they come in at the lowest side, the likelihood that they're going to jump up eventually to that highest price thing is probably much, much lower.

You know, it's much more transactional when they're buying the lowest cost thing versus really investing their time or money or focus on the most expensive thing. So I think there's all sorts of benefits focusing in on that. And it's almost counterintuitive. Is that the.

What you see for a lot of behavioral science, it feels like it's counterintuitive.

You know, in some cases, yes, not in all. In some cases you read about something and you go, oh, that makes perfect sense. And I can even think of instances in my own life when I've done that.

You know, it's like, duh, why did I think of that as a marketer, I certainly, you know, do that as a human being. That's the whole thing about behavioral science. It's how people make decisions, it's why they do what they do.

And very, very often we're operating on autopilot. We're not really thinking about it, we're just cruising along. So in some cases you're like, gee, that makes perfect sense.

In other cases you're like, hmm, that is a little counterintuitive. I would have thought it'd make more sense to focus on benefits. I would have thought it made more sense to lead with the, the least expensive option.

I did some work for a client where they were actually asking us to try to re engage financial advisors who used to do business with them, but then stopped. And what we ended up doing was sending them A gift. And this was counterintuitive because you would say, why, Nancy?

Why would you send a gift to people who stopped doing business with you? If you're going to spend the money on sending a gift, send it to the financial advisors who are doing business.

You want to reinforce the positive behavior. But what happened is, you know, we sent the gift, it was unexpected, nobody asked for it.

We sent it to people we had the wholesaler follow up with, you know, with a phone call. And they ended up getting $68 million in incremental revenue from the promotion. They re engaged financial advisors. Because why?

The reciprocity principle.

When someone does something for you, even if you didn't ask for it, or even if you did, but once someone does something for you, you feel obligated to return the favor. So you get this gift in the mail, then you get a follow up phone call and what do you do? You're like, ah, you know what?

I think I'll do some business with you guys again. So some of them really are counterintuitive.

Wow, that's fascinating. And this last tip definitely feels counterintuitive to me where this idea of telling people no, they don't have to buy the thing or backing off.

What are we talking about here?

So, well, think about it. In marketing, what we do is we're selling our hearts out. We're trying so hard to convince people to do what we want them to do.

To click to call, try to buy, to buy again, to offer up some personal information, whatever it is right to refer somebody. We're really trying hard.

And we lay out that sales case, that sales argument, we make all the great points and then we come to our call to action and we ask them to do what we're asking them to do. And that makes sense. And that's kind of how we do things. But what you should do is follow that request with but you don't have to.

And the reason for this comes down to something that behavioral scientists call autonomy bias. Humans have this deep seated desire to exercise some kind of control over ourselves and our environments.

We want some kind of autonomy, some kind of agency. And if we feel like we're being pushed into doing something or forced into doing something, if we feel we have no choice, we can resist it. But.

But by using something called the by a F technique, by A F stands for but you are free, it actually can double the likelihood people do what you want them to do.

So essentially you make your argument, you make your call to action, and then you finish by saying but you are free to choose, but it's up to you, but the choice is yours.

And just reminding people that they're the ones who are actively making the decision that they're not being shoved in a certain direction by you actually activates the autonomy principle and makes them feel more likely to do what you're going to ask them to do.

So while it's great to lay out your sales argument and end with your call to action, what you should really do is lay out your sales argument, have your call to action, finish with, but you are free to choose, but it's up to you, but the choice is yours. It really does work.

Is all of this, like, in the subconscious?

Do people look at this at the end of, let's say, an email or whatever promotional item it says on the choice is yours, they go, oh, good, I feel really happy about that. Or are they just moving really quick?

They see that and it triggers something in their mind, and they are more likely to respond, is it subconscious or is it, like, front and center? When we're interacting with these behavioral things.

It'S very often subconscious. There are estimates that say between, you know, 95 and 98% of purchase decision making takes place in the subconscious mind.

We're, you know, cruising along on autopilot. We're just responding.

And so we see something like that, and we may not stop and analyze it and go, oh, they told me that the choice is mine, therefore I will no. But what happens is, you know, we get to that and we just feel it on a gut level. It just feels better and we make the choice.

So very often it's subconscious, occasionally it's conscious, Occasionally we're.

I don't know, we look at something, we're not sure what decision to make, and we go, oh, a lot of people like me have made this choice, therefore I'm going to follow them. That's social proof, as I'm sure many of your listeners know. And that's maybe a little bit more deliberate.

We're trying to make a decision, and we're like, all right, I'm going to do what other people are doing because it makes me feel safe. You know, it's probably a good move. I'm probably not going to screw up. So sometimes it's a little bit. A little bit more overt, but very often it's.

It's subconscious. We're just kind of responding automatically, instinctively, reflexively.

Amazing. These are three great tips. So let's jump into the last segment here, which has nothing to do with marketing. Or anything like that.

And this is called, since you didn't ask, we just talk about life. All right, Nancy, are you ready for this? I don't know. Are you sure?

I'm going to buckle in, Jay. I have no idea what's coming next, but I'm going to give it my best.

Oh, no, it's all good. So I was just thinking about this while you were talking. I follow Nancy on all social channels. She's amazing.

First of all, you must follow her on LinkedIn. She puts out the best content. But I follow on all social channels.

And something that you do on social is that you will take pictures of a meal that you ate and you'll say, I just ate at this restaurant. You'll tag them and say it was fantastic. Okay. But what I noticed is that when you take the picture, it's often the fully formed plate of food.

Like you haven't eaten it yet and then you post it. And that's great.

But do you ever take pictures of.

The food and then it wasn't great and then you delete the picture or do you. No matter what, even if it looks great on the plate, you're posting it? This is very important.

Yeah, that's a very good question. So I do love to eat. Absolutely. You nailed that. I take the picture when the food arrives because that's when it's going to look the best.

I'm not sure people want to look at a half consumed meal, but I don't usually post until after. So if it turns out that it was a real dud, I probably won't post because I'm not enthusiastic about it. So I take the picture in the moment.

Later that night or maybe the next morning is when I actually post it. So if anyone happens to be following me, if you see me post food, you can be pretty sure it was good.

So what percentage of pictures taken to posting occurs? Like 90%. Because it was like 90%, I'm no longer gonna, like, take you like, oh, this is really good. It's got to be lower than that.

So. Well, all right. So here's the thing. I have a tendency to return to my favorite restaurants. I love the lobster pot.

I'm down on the Cape in the summers. My usual Friday night go to is the lobster pot. So you can be pretty certain if I've had dinner there and I'm posting a picture, it was good.

I've never had a bad meal there. Actually, if you're seeing me post a lot from the same restaurant, it's like, well, all right, that's one of her go to.

She loves it when it comes to trying new restaurants. Maybe a 60, 40 split.

You know, sometimes you find something that's great because a friend recommended it or you read about it, but sometimes you read about something or a friend recommends it and you're like, I don't know what they were smoking when they recommended it because I'm not happy. So I'd say probably 60% of the time it lands. And the other 40, we just pretend it didn't happen.

That is a good percentage. And by the way, I look at your post, it makes me hungry.

And usually when I see your post, I'm eating something that doesn't look anywhere near as good. I'm like, I gotta go hang out with Nancy. Whatever she's doing, she always has cool food.

And so I blame you for the failure of many diets that I've started. So thank you, Nancy. It's not nice.

Here's my tip though. I eat about half of it and then I bring the other half home and I have leftovers the next day. So that's good. That helps you.

That's a tough tip. That's a behavioral tip that I may not be able to follow, but all the other ones are very, very good. Well, this has been amazing.

Please, everybody, first off, follow Nancy, Nancy Harhut on LinkedIn, all social platforms and get her book using behavioral science and marketing. I cannot recommend it enough. It is just a fantastic and fun read. It's really interesting. And Nancy, thank you for being on do this, not that.

Jay, thank you so much. I can't wait to start to listen to all of your episodes. I know they're going to be a huge hit and again, I'm honored to be one of your guests.

Thank you so much and thank you for your kind words about my book. I appreciate that. And also thank you for letting me quote you in the book and featuresubjectline.com in the book again. Really appreciate that.

Absolutely. All right, thanks, Nancy. See you soon.

Take care.

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