Ep. 111- Overcoming CONSUMER Marketing Hurdles ==> #1 Marketing Podcast in U.S. – Matthew Tilley from Vericast – Head of Growth

Welcome to do this, not that, the podcast for marketers. You'll walk away from each episode with actionable tips you can test immediately.

You'll hear from the best minds in marketing who will share tactics, quick wins and pitfalls to avoid. Also dig into life, pop culture, and the chaos that is our everyday. I'm Jay Schwedelson. Let's do this. Not that we have a guest.

We have a great guest today. So who's here? We have Matthew Tilly. Now, who's Matthew Tilly? He is.

You might know him already, but he is the vice president of growth marketing at Veracast. And besides being in charge of growth, he's also a content machine, which we're going to talk about in a second.

But if you don't know Vericast, you might be living under a rock somewhere. But let me tell you who they are. So verikast is the leader in leveraging data to influence consumers and driving meaningful commerce.

They have over 15,000 clients and they reach over 130 million households. And they're really big in the consumer packaged goods space, financial services, grocery, restaurant, retail sectors.

They're just a huge organization and they are really fueling a lot of the consumer campaigns from a data perspective that we're all consuming on a daily basis. And here's one other fun fact about Matthew is that he is the host of a podcast called Business to Human. They're like, everybody has a podcast.

Who cares that he's a host of a podcast? No, this podcast, a few weeks ago it reached number one in the United States of America.

According to Apple, the number one marketing podcast in the United States out of over 50,000 marking podcasts. So this guy is real deal. Matthew. Welcome to do this, not that.

Hey, thank you, Jay. I'm glad to be on here and thanks for the glowing, glowing introduction.

So you hear his voice, you're like, wow, that dude should be number one. He just sounds cool.

There you go.

So. So Matthew, now that we all found out that you're cool, tell us, how did you become so cool? What is, what is Matthew's origin story here?

Yeah, the origin story I actually out from the beginning in business to business marketing. Some of it was in some government relations work early on, transitioned over into some bank work and all that.

But ultimately everything I've done has really touched on trying to connect a business relationship to another business in order to reach an end consumer. So that B2B2C kind of model has always been kind of in, in the, in the background.

The one thing that kind of one thread that I won't put a year to it. Cause it makes me think I'm older than I want to be.

But a long time ago, the thread that started was I was working on a business that settled coupon transactions and then I left that and went to an ad, a digital ad company. It was called maxpoint at the time. And that company got acquired by a competitor to the previous company that I was with.

So it's all come back full circle.

So it's all about marketing to consumers, all about advertising, all about understanding where their mindsets are and doing that through these big awesome brands, these B2B. Our marketing is B2B to these big awesome brands who are trying to reach out to consumers. So that's, that's where I started, that's where I finished.

That's where I am right now. And far as I can tell, that's going to be where I am for a while.

So before we get into really the guts of what we're going to talk about today, I'm curious, since you've been really focusing on trying to reach the consumer for a good amount of time, right?

With all the new ways that we can reach consumers today and all the new data that's out there, has it all changed radically or at its core you're still doing the same basic stuff you were doing when you were starting out.

At the core there is data has always been, or at least for the time that I've been working on this stuff, data has always been at the core of it.

What is amazing in even the couple of decades that I've been working through there, the transformation and the tools that are available to actually leverage that data to reach out to the consumer. So there's new new targeting, new tactics, new new ways, new new bells and whistles, if you will.

But underneath it, even, even several, you know, a couple decades ago, even then, you know, data was at the core of it.

That coupon transaction business that I was in, it was all about understanding what people were responding to, what messages, what face values and all that. And then calibrating your, your offers. I mean, and that's, I mean, that sounds pretty low tech, but it's still very data driven.

Well, you know, speaking of tech, and I think I've heard you talk about this before, about treating people like people.

And in this day and age, you know, with AI and the, and the impact that it's having now and that it will have this idea of treating people like people, I feel like it's going to bubble up to be even more relevant than ever. Is that really what we should be thinking about in terms of how we're marketing to consumers?

I think so.

Because if you just look at kind of on the surface, the reality is, I mean, and I say this, that even just me and you, we talk to each other long enough, we're going to run across contradictions.

There's going to be things that we say are true, and then we're going to say another thing that is also true, and those two things are going to feel like they're in contradiction with each other. Consumers are no different. That's exactly how they are. Example of that is privacy.

All this data that's around, they're a little concerned, hey, companies, be careful. Don't use my data without my permission. Make sure I protect my privacy.

At the same time, out of that same mouth, they're going to say, but I really like it when they give me a personalized message. And you and I both know, I mean, how else can I give you a personalized message unless I have data and leverage your data to do that?

So it's not about. Because what'll happen. And I've done this myself, where you can sort of react to one extreme or the other.

And if I'm going to treat you like a human being, I'm going to actually understand that there's. The truth is not either or, it's both. And it's. You gotta. You gotta have that nuance.

There's a Elvis Costello song that I've only recently been introduced to. So people that are longtime fans, apologies, but he's got a song, he's got a lyric that says something to the effect of.

It's almost like I'm just like a human being. And I think that's how consumers are there. It's almost like they're actually people.

They're human beings out there, and people deserve to be respected with nuance. You got to find that interaction of what they deserve with the context that they're in so that you understand where they are.

Because how I'm operating on a podcast is going to look a lot different than how I operate when I'm in a grocery store, which is going to be different than I'm in a football stadium. Those are. Those contexts matter. And then what I value, because in some cases I'm cheap. In other cases, I'm willing to put down some big bucks.

Just depends on what we're talking about. So that's really what I'm talking about. When I say treat people as hue, as humans, as actual people because we're full of contradictions.

But it's in that sort of intersection of all those contradictions where the nuance matters. And that's what brands have got to figure out, how that data really tells a full body picture of the people they're trying to reach.

So that's, that's hard. Right, because how do you deal with that? You have these contradictions where, yeah, okay, I protect my privacy.

I don't want you knowing all this about me. But by the way, I want offers that speak to me specifically. Yeah, I mean, how do you put that into play?

I mean, is it something where if somebody's at a football game, you make sure that they don't get an offer about the fact that they have diabetes because it's, you know, they're not in that frame of mind? I mean, how do you actually deal with it?

Yeah, I think that there's Certainly some technology, CDPs and things like that that can certainly help you get to that place from a technology implementation.

But you mentioned AI earlier on and I happen to believe that none of these technology tools like AI are operating without the biases and the assumptions that we as humans have. So the same thing goes with our marketing technology. And yes, we need those things to amplify and go faster, go bigger, go broader.

But at the end of the day, they are operating based on the assumptions and the philosophies, if you will, that we're putting into them. And the philosophy we need to come at this marketing with is we need to respect people. And when I respect you, I am, I'm going to learn about you.

Absolutely. That's not disrespectful to learn about you. In fact, that's respectful. I'm going to learn about you, I'm going to kind of keep notes on you.

I want to understand who this person is and, but I'm not going to do that just to use you as a commodity, as some sort of resource from, to extract a value out of. Instead, I'm actually going to treat you in such a way so that we're going to get a mutually beneficial.

And I know that sounds so sort of high minded and all that, but that's, I mean, you know it when you meet a jerk, right? That's a jerk. I know that's a jerk. I don't really want to talk to that guy or that gal.

I'm just not interested in that because they're not treating you in the right way. Same thing Goes with a marketer.

If we can come at it from a point of view that says, listen, this person needs to, that I'm working with, they need some value out of this interaction. So I'm going to learn from them, but I'm going to use that learning for their benefit as well as mine.

But it's going to be a mutually beneficial relationship, not a one way street. I think that's how it's got to start with that philosophy.

And then of course technology and tools can, can amplify and activate on that, but you got to start with that good philosophy. Yeah.

And you know what I always find interesting in terms of, so we have a lot of data on everybody and I see people get upset when we tell the people the data that we have on them as opposed to using it. So what I mean by that is if you target somebody based on their interests, yes, they're very, they seem to be very receptive to the offer.

But if you tell them, hey, we know this about you put it in the message, we know you're this age or you have this income or whatever, they get really pissed.

Right.

I mean, is that like, is that that line that you don't want to cross everything?

Yeah, I think so. I mean, yeah, yeah.

You know, it is, it's, it's not that you're trying to hide the information, but it's ultimately, you know, it's not about trying to like, let me tell you everything that you, that you are.

In fact, there's a, there's this idea that I want you to reflect back to me the image of, here's another part of this, the image of me that I want to see because there's parts of me, let's be honest about it, that I don't like. So I don't want you to tell me all those things. I want you to reflect back to me the IM that I want to see.

So therefore, to your point, don't tell me that you know how old I am or what my medical conditions are and things like that, but how are you going to make my life better? Let's go there, talked about that, that I'm interested in. That's what I want to talk about. That's giving me value. Absolutely.

So, and speaking of value, because you go back and you talk about your couponing days, is value only about, you know, a discount or is there a way to provide value that's beyond just the discount you're marketing to consumers?

Yeah, yeah, discounts are definitely part of that. So definitely don't want anybody to hear me say it's like, no, it's not that. It is part of that.

In fact, right now, because of inflation, specifically food inflation, which has been a big problem over the last couple years or a year or so, people are looking for ways, especially when they're in the grocery store. It's other places as well, but really in the grocery store, they're really looking for ways to cut, cut corners. But, but value what is valuable.

To me, yes, it might be savings because I'm trying to save on my grocery bill, but there's this phenomenon that, that people are actually spending ginormous amounts of money on other things.

The famous thing is, you know, people buying all these Taylor Swift and Beyonce concert tickets, and you're not buying that for, you know, even 80 or 100 bucks. I mean, these are, these are hundred thousand hundreds, hundreds and thousands of dollars of expense, and they're gladly paying.

It would probably buy more if they were available to them. So it's more about, it's not about just about savings. It's about what is valuable, what is what, what do I value at this moment?

And savings are very valuable to people on the whole, but not on everything. So some things like, like, like a, like a Beyonce ticket, they might drop a couple grand on that and be okay and feel good about it.

On the other hand, you're trying to sell me some pickles. I'd like a coupon for that, please. So it's a little bit. That's where that contradiction comes in.

You're like, if you're really willing to spend this on that, why in the world would you, why in the world you need a coupon or vice versa? Why would you be willing to buy that big, big ticket item if you're, if you, if you need a coupon?

But yeah, and brand loyalty is everything. You know, I mean, look at, like, Lululemon. You can get the same functional thing that you buy Lululemon you get for a lot less, you know, elsewhere.

Yeah.

But you're loyal to that brand. And so I, I, and, and, you know, perceived value there.

Yes.

Let me ask you something completely out of left field here, because it's very rare I get to talk to somebody that hit number one on the podcasting charts. Okay. Besides for having a really cool voice, a lot of the listeners are marketers. Some have podcasts, some want to have podcasts.

Sure.

What have you found to be the roadmap in terms of the type of content that you have on your podcast that seems to really resonate with listeners.

Yeah, the content that really resonates is I try to come into the conversations I have. Mostly I'm guest driven.

So a lot like this where you have somebody that you brought on and have an interview with and I try to have those people tell me their victories and their failures. Now, not too many people like to talk about their failures, but in as much as I can let them share, here's a big challenge that we tried to reach.

Here's what, what went right. So I love to hear them talk about those. We had somebody on talking about the beauty industry and selling cosmetics in Walmart and places like that.

At the same time I'm also talking to, you know, a fintech company on another show talking about a fintech company that's had to launch a new brand and how they, how they went about that.

And in both is what I, what I think is resonating and what I personally find fascinating is them telling those stories and just saying, here's what we went through, here's the trials and tribulations.

But then being able to bring it back to okay, now somebody who's not in your, in your space, you're not in the beauty industry, you're not in fintech, what can we learn from that? And they, most of the guests that I have on really do a fantastic job of helping me connect the dots for.

I'm a restaurant marketer and I'm listening to you talk about a fintech brand. How does that apply to me?

And we, I think that's where the, the content really shines is be able to get these marketing leaders to give some good, usable, broad based lessons for marketers overall.

Yeah, well, I've listened and that's exactly what it does.

So I'm a big fan and I think, you know, you hit on something where people talking about failures, I think the, the, the most consumed content, especially on LinkedIn or on podcasts is anything that's relatable and fail the most relatable.

Is it at all.

Fail really good at that.

Yes.

So let's get into the last segment of this podcast, which is a little weird called since you didn't ask. We talk about things that are not work related.

Sure.

And listen, you may not realize this for all the people listening, but we, not only is Matthew a great podcaster, but the guy is like, he doesn't stop running. I said to him, before we start, I go, you like Forrest Gump in the nicest possible way. So you, what is the plan here? You want to Run really far.

Like, really far.

I do. The goal is by the time I'm 50, which is way closer than I am willing to admit right now.

By the time I'm 50, I would like to run 50 miles, a 50 mile route. I have been running for, oh goodness, probably about 15, 20 years now.

But if you ever saw me, and all you're seeing now is sort of from the chest up, but if you ever saw me, you would know this dude is not a runner.

I don't look like a runner, but let me just tell you, I just, and I'm not fast, but I love to go out, get in the woods, go in trails and just run for, for, for hours on end and, but right now I'm trying to go longer and farther. The farthest I've gone so far is 20 miles. Trying to get a marathon under my belt here very soon.

And then we'll go for the, go for the, the 50 miler next.

So like when you're home, you're like, all right, I'm gonna go out for a run. And then it's like, what is like four hours later you come home?

Yeah, I've done, I've done some three and four hour runs. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Especially when you're going 15, 20 miles.

I mean, that's, that's for me at least slow man, as I am on the, on the back roads. Yeah, that's about a four hour run. Yeah.

Okay. So I like to, I, I'll run, but I run about maybe three miles or so. And by mile two, I'm like, oh my God, I might not make it. I can't handle this.

Are you just like getting warmed up? Like, at what point are you like, oh man, I don't know if I can keep going. Is that like mile like 13? Like, how does that happen?

Well, yeah, yeah. Especially like on a race. I've done several half marathons, which are like 13 miles.

And I'll tell you, on a race, when you get, for me, when I get to about like mile eight, nine, it's like, oh my goodness, this is never going to end.

But whenever I go on those longer, I'm telling you, when I did the 20 mile race not too long ago, by the time I was on mile 15, I was like, I'm feeling pretty good. And then it was like mile 16, I'm like, I'm about to die. So, you know, but it.

And again, speed matters because for me, I mean, I'm out there on the trails eating snacks, going pretty slow. So It's a fast hike if you want to look at it. Really how fast Matthew's going.

Oh, when I run in my neighborhood and it drives me crazy because my, it's this like circle, I'll run, but I run very slow. And then I'll see somebody later on in the day and they'll say to me, they always say to me, hey, Jay, I saw you walking earlier today.

And I go, no, no, no, no, no. I was running. I get so angry.

I hear you, I hear you.

Well, all right, before we wrap up here, Matthew, how does everybody follow you, connect with you? How do they make that happen?

Sure. So the the podcast is called Business to Human.

It really does hit on this theme that we were talking about about connecting businesses to human beings, people in a real way. You can follow us on Apple, on Spotify, all the usual podcast platforms and I'm glad to connect with anybody on LinkedIn.

I'm pretty, pretty active out there, so love to connect and connect further and share our ideas and our content there with you. If you'd like to.

I'm going to throw another plug out there. Matthew is going to be speaking at Delivered Conference, right? The big direct mail virtual conference.

It's also free, so if you want to see Matthew speak on the virtual stage, it's free. To register, go to delivered conference.com, check out Verikas and definitely check out Business the Human. His podcast is fantastic.

Matthew, thanks for being here.

Awesome. Enjoyed it, Jay, Appreciate it.

All right, take it easy. You did it. You made it to the end. Nice. But the party's not over.

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