TARIFF Impact: Use Brain Science Marketing in Uncertain Times 👉 Nancy Harhut’s Shortcut to Double Response 💥 | Ep. 328

Jay: We are back for do this, not that podcast presented by Marigold. And we have one of my favorite human beings on the planet here today. I am so excited. Nancy Hart is here. If you don't know Nancy, I don't know what's going on with you. She is, uh, co-founder of HBT Marketing. But more than that, she's also a bestselling author.

Jay: I know a lot of people are bestselling authors, but no, Nancy has written this book using behavioral science and marketing. If you don't have it, you should stop listening. You should go get it. It will change your view about how marketing works about brain science. After you hear Nancy today, you're like, oh my God, I don't know anything about how marketing works because there's all this stuff going on that we don't realize.

Jay: Okay? So Nancy's gonna be here today and we are gonna get into some cool stuff. Nancy, welcome to the podcast.

Nancy: Uh, Jay, thank you so much. I am delighted to be here.

Jay: I love it. All right, so let me, I'll ask Nancy to come on for a specific topic. I don't wanna just hear about adding, you know, a dollar 99 to, uh, your pricing and that's a good idea to trick people. That's not $2. No. What I wanna talk to Nancy about is we are in uncertain times right now. I'll never talk politics on the show.

Jay: I don't care about any of that, but. No matter what, anybody cares about the political stuff. It is uncertain right now. People feel unsure about spending money. Businesses feel unsure about products, uh, inventory feel unsure about their budgets. There is this unease about the economy and where it's all headed. And in marketing there's gonna be a huge impact there. There's an impact already, and there are little things that Nancy can share with us. About how we reframe our marketing, that can radically change whether you're a business or a consumer marketer. The outcomes. So Nancy, uh, do you agree with that? And, and what can we be doing?

Nancy: Y Yeah, no, absolutely. I, you know, I'm, I'm hearing from, from clients as well as just reading in the, in the media that, uh, you know, people are feeling uncertain. They're, um, they're, they're hitting pause is kind of the phrase that people are using. They're just not sure. 'cause you don't know what's gonna happen every day.

Nancy: It could be something new and, uh, because you. You don't have a sense of what's going on. You don't feel comfortable planning and, and so you hold back a little bit and you're a little cautious. Although we, you know, we all need to stay in business. We all need to continue to, uh, to make money to pay our employees, you know, so, um, so we have to figure out how to, how to make that happen.

Nancy: We have to figure out a way forward, even though. It's only human to feel a little, uh, cautious and a little uncertain right now. But, um, but I think there are some things that, that brands, companies, marketers, can do to, um, increase the likelihood that their audience feels more comfortable buying from them.

Nancy: Right? And one thing they can do is talk it, uh, talk, tap, tap into something known as autonomy bias, and. The way behavioral scientists define autonomy bias, they, they say that it's, um, this deep seated desire that humans have to exert some kind of control over themselves and their environment, right? They, they want to feel like they're in control.

Nancy: And, uh, one way to make people feel that they're in control is to give them. Choices. So one thing that we can do right now, especially, I mean, it's, it's fine to do this always, but one thing that's particularly uh, potent right now is to give people choices. Instead of saying, here's the, you know, the one product I picked out for you, or the one, uh, service I'm recommending to you, give them two or possibly three.

Nancy: Don't give 'em too many 'cause that's gonna overwhelm them, but give 'em a couple, right? If you're quoting a job. Don't just quote it one way. Say, uh, you know, here's, uh, you know, here's the A version and the B version, right? Give people choices because choices make people feel in charge, right? We, we feel that if, if we're presented with choices, we're the one who's choosing from among those choices.

Nancy: And so as a result. We feel empowered, we feel like we're calling the shots. We don't feel out of control. We don't feel like we're being pushed into doing something that we don't want to. And, and here's a really interesting add-on to that point. Behavioral scientists, Jay have identified something called the BYAF technique.

Nancy: BYAF stands for, but you are free. And what they found is we can. Tell people what we want them to do as marketers, right? We can ask them to do it, and then if we follow that request with a phrase like, but you were free to choose, or The choice is yours, or It's up to you, or it's your call, it can actually.

Nancy: Double the likelihood that people will do what we want them to do. And the reason behavioral scientists have found is because it makes it really top of mind for people that they're not being forced into something. They are coming to the decision of their own volition. It's, it's their choice. It, it's their decision.

Nancy: And it sounds a little counterintuitive because you've, you've just kind of sold your heart out, right? You've explained why somebody should do something and now you've asked them to do it, and it, it almost seems like, why would you then say, but you know what? It's up to you, but it actually works. There's a, a.

Nancy: Ton of research on this, and uh, on average it will double the likelihood that people will do you want them to do. So you wanna give 'em some choices and you wanna use that, that magic phrase, you know, but it's your choice. It's up to you, it's your call. You know, just reminding people that they're the ones in charge.

Jay: I feel like you're like the David Blaine of Mark. Or whatever. Or you should have titled your book like Marketing Voodoo, because now I'm gonna get all this marketing stuff that says, but you're free to choose. I'm like, oh, I can make the choice. But really the choice has already been made for me. I am getting, I can't believe it.

Jay: I'm getting tricked. All right. Well gimme some other David Blaine stuff. With all this uncertainty, is there any other things that marketers can be doing to incorporate that can also do some sort of crazy growth like that?

Nancy: Absolutely. And, and you know, and it's not really, you're not tricking people, you are just tapping into the way the human brain works and, you know, but I wanna, you know, I, I, I always like to point that out because we wanna use these techniques honestly, responsibly, ethically, uh, because what we're doing is we're working with the way the human brain works as opposed to fighting that uphill battle of, of working against it.

Nancy: If.

Jay: Wait, we did another session together and I said something was a gimmick in, in the best possible way, and Nancy then interrupted me and she goes. No, no, no. It's not a gimmick. It wasn't a gimmick. This is like a tactic. It's proven out. Whatever. I always say the wrong. I always like, it's a trick. It's a gimmick.

Jay: And it's like, no, no, no. Dump belittle. This entire field of marketing science. You big dummy. Anyway, sorry. Go

Nancy: no, no, it's not that. I just wanted to, you know, I mean, it, they're tips, their tricks, their tactics, their techniques. You know, they're, but I think my, you know, the, the thing that I wanna underscore is we should use them for good. And, and I don't want people to kind of go, um, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm fooling people 'cause we're not fooling people.

Nancy: We can't make people do something they don't wanna make, but we can make it, uh, more likely that they'll do something that they would like to do. Uh. By working with the human brain. So in this case, we know people like to feel they have a choice. So let's give 'em a choice. Uh, we're not forcing them to make a choice, but we know that when they have a choice, they're more likely to, to take advantage of it.

Nancy: Um, the other thing we can do is we can think about our pricing, right? Behavioral scientists talk about something called magnitude and coding effect, and this is really interesting. What they found is how we show prices. Influences how big or small people perceive them to be. So you can have the same price, you can, you know, something's a hundred dollars, right?

Nancy: If you show that a hundred dollars in the top. Left of your screen or your page, it just feels like a higher number than that same a hundred dollars positioned in the lower left of the page of the screen where it simply feels like a, a lower number. It's the same a hundred dollars, but where it is on the, on the page, you know, how high or low it, it appears on the page, influences how high or low we think it is.

Nancy: Um, it, it's.

Jay: wait a minute. So if you see a price on the top right hand corner and you saw the and and another ab test of that, another one had the bottom left corner, like a scroll down, you're saying it feels more expensive on the bottom.

Nancy: No, and it feels more expensive on the top right. It, it feels like a, a higher price. When it's at the top. It feels like a lower price, that same a hundred dollars lower on the screen. So. I, I know it's, it's amazing now. And these are, you know, they're, they're, uh, small differences. Uh, but as, as people kind of are cruising along on autopilot, which we often are doing, not always, but we often are.

Nancy: Uh, it just, you know, behavioral scientists have found that if it's higher on the screen, it just, we just think of it, it feels like a higher price when it's lower, it, it feels lower. Uh, the same thing can be said for just the amount of. Physical space, a price takes up. So again, let's stick with the a hundred dollars example.

Nancy: Uh, you could show a hundred dollars price as dollar sign, 1 0 0 decimal 0.00, that's a hundred dollars. Or you could say, you know, you could show dollar sign 1 0 0, that's also a hundred dollars. Or you could make your dollar sign about half the size of your numerals. So half size dollar sign, and then 1 0 0.

Nancy: So each of those takes up progressively less. Physical space on the page because you got rid of the dollars, uh, because you got rid of the decimal point in the two zeros that you showed the first time. Uh, it, it makes that a hundred dollars look smaller the second time we show it 'cause there's no decimal point in two, two zeros taking up more space.

Nancy: What researchers have found is the less physical space a price takes up, the smaller we think it is, right? We, we kind of equate the physical space to the monetary value. So if you're taking up less space, you, you seem like a smaller price. And if you're taking up. More space. So, uh, when you wanna position your prices right, you don't necessarily have to change your prices.

Nancy: You don't have to lower them. But, uh, when you're showing them, you wanna show them in such a way that, uh, you know, they look smaller. When you're talking about your competitors' prices, you wanna reference those in such a way that they look bigger, right? If you're gonna have a sale, uh, you, you always want your original price on the left and your sales price to the right.

Nancy: But the further apart they are physically, the further apart they seem monetarily. So again, maybe it was $200 and now it's $100. So you say $200 dot.now $100, or you could say $200 now $100. The, the further apart they are on that, um. You know, horizontal plane, right? The, the further apart they seem from a monetary perspective.

Nancy: So it's just, uh, it's just interesting, you know, these, these reactions that we have to the position and, and the space that a price takes up. So without even changing your prices, you can. Influence how people perceive them. And if you are gonna have a sale, you can maximize the, you know, the impact of that sale by, you know, putting the two prices a little bit further apart than normally by always making sure that you lead with the original and follow with the sales price as opposed to leading with the sales price and then saying, oh, by the way, it used to be this.

Jay: Like, like, are you able to be a regular human or do you only see brain science when you're out in the world?

Nancy: Uh, it's funny. Um, so the answer is yes and no, honestly. So, uh, I, a lot of times I do notice it. 'cause, you know, I love this, this is what I do. I, you know, I do it for my clients. I've, I've written a book on it, you know, so I, I like this, and so I'm. Often on the lookout for examples, you know, out in, in the real world.

Nancy: So I can say, oh, there's someone who's doing it. I can write about it, I can show it in my presentations, you know, but that doesn't mean I'm immune to it because I, you know, I'm a person just like everyone else is. And for the most part, we cruise along on, on autopilot. And so there are times when I'll, you know, at the end of the day, go, oh, I know why I bought that, you know, but in the moment I, you know, I bought it.

Nancy: I, I had a, uh, I sat down at a bar once I wanted a glass of wine. I look at the wine list and. It, the wines were, you know, they all looked good, but they didn't look like anything I'd had before. I didn't recognize any of them. So I, uh, I kind of glanced at it and I said to the bartender, I, I want a red, I want something that's, um, you know, got a little le leather, a lot of, you know, tannin to it.

Nancy: And he says, oh, okay, great. I recommend, you know, blah, blah, blah. And so I took a quick look and it was the most expensive glass of wine on the. Wine, buy glass, you know? So I said, listen, I'm thinking to myself, I don't know if I'd spend that on a bottle. You know, I'm not gonna buy a glass. So I said, it's, that looks a little expensive.

Nancy: What else would you recommend? You know, I was just honest with him and he said, oh, okay, no problem. And he said, then I would recommend this other one. I said, I'll have that. So he comes back and he gives me, uh, a taste of each of them. I did not ask for a taste of each of them, but he comes back with two glasses a little bit in each, and I taste them both.

Nancy: And it is, they both tasted good, but it's true that the more expensive one did taste a little better. And I thought to myself, well, you know, Nancy, you are on vacation and you know what? You, you can splurge, you, you know, treat yourself. You deserve it, you've earned it. And I ordered the more expensive glass and I enjoyed it.

Nancy: And I got back to my hotel room that night and I was like, oh my God. I know exactly what happened. Behavioral scientists talk about something called the reciprocity principle, where when somebody does a favor for you, whether or not you ask for it, but when they do a favor for you, when they give you something you feel compelled to return the favor, you feel obliged to reciprocate.

Nancy: He brought the two taste. I didn't ask for them. Now I felt like, ah, you know what? I should buy the more expensive wine. Give him a better tip. And, and that's exactly what I did. And in the moment I told myself I was doing it because. I deserved it. I was on vacation when I got back that night and thought about it.

Nancy: I'm like, I see exactly what happened. So that was a long answer to your question, but yes and no. Sometimes I see it, sometimes, uh, I don't see it right away.

Jay: You're like a real person, like the rest of us, how you take off your superhero costume. Um, alright, so everybody, listen, I'm not just saying this, I'm gonna put in the show notes, but if you don't have using behavioral science and marketing Nancy's book, it is the only book you should ever read. This is it.

Jay: This is the one book, if you're illiterate. Figure out how to read. Read this book. It's amazing. Also, Nancy is gonna be speaking at Event Astic, which is the world's largest event about events. It's virtual and free event astic.com. She can be talking about all things related to events and behavioral science.

Jay: Nancy, though. But beyond that, how do people find you? How do they follow you? What can they do?

Nancy: Uh, thank you very much for those kind words about the book. I really, really appreciate it and for the kind words about me, um, you can find me on, on the socials I'm on. Uh. Twitter, x Blue Sky, uh, you know, I'm on Facebook, I'm on LinkedIn. You can find me at hbt Marketing, which is the, uh, the company that I co-founded.

Nancy: It's hbt mktg.com. We kind of abbreviate marketing on, on our website, um, in our URL, but, uh, HBT Marketing and you can contact me there. You can also find some interviews and some articles and. Lots of these great tips and tactics and tricks about, uh, behavioral science and, uh, and I'd love to hear from any of your listeners, you know, uh, uh, connect with me on social or pop me an email.

Nancy: 'cause email is great. And, uh, you know, uh, maybe we can, um, maybe we can, uh, answer some questions or share some ideas or get some work done. So, uh, absolutely. And the book, the book is available online. Kogan page is a publisher, Amazon, Barnes and Noble Target. Uh, recently, uh, it debuted in. Japan and it's about to come out in Chinese.

Nancy: Kind of. Cool.

Jay: Kua. Amazing. That's amazing. I, I, I will not be buying those versions, but I love hearing that. And also follow Nancy on LinkedIn. She's my favorite follow on LinkedIn. It's Nancy Hart, HAR, uh, HUT, and I find her there. Nancy. Thanks as always. You're the best.

Nancy: Thank you. It's been a blast. Jay.